Chris Buckridge - 22-11-2021 16:00:21
Hi everyone, I'm Chris from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon. Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on https://ripe83.ripe.net/.
Ulrike Uhlig - 22-11-2021 16:01:29
Sebastian Becker - 22-11-2021 16:01:29
Chris Buckridge - 22-11-2021 16:01:30
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 16:01:31
Jelte Jansen - 22-11-2021 16:01:33
ack, ack, ack
Markus Aberham - 22-11-2021 16:01:33
Jan Walzer - 22-11-2021 16:01:35
Sergio Patrucco - 22-11-2021 16:01:36
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:02:49
not got audio. everyone else got audio?
Peter van Dijk - 22-11-2021 16:02:55
I have audio
Andreas Härpfer - 22-11-2021 16:02:58
Audio good here
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:02:59
Hisham Ibrahim - 22-11-2021 16:03:11
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:03:45
refresh worked - thanks
Pablo Nieto - 22-11-2021 16:04:29
If everything else fails... you can use https://ripe83.ripe.net/live/main/ or youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g722hpSxmOE or even your favorite video player with this URL https://livestream.ripe.net/main/index.m3u8
Niall O'Reilly - 22-11-2021 16:04:54
or the stenography
Ivan Beveridge - 22-11-2021 16:06:42
It's a while since I heard discussions on IPX networks ;)
Hisham Ibrahim - 22-11-2021 16:07:09
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:07:16
IPX and its hexadecimal addresses ;-)
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 16:08:55
So this is Layer6 Peering ?
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:10:45
We definitely did a dreadful job at making IP on Ethernet possess job-security levels of complexity, and should celebrate the input of global telco here.
Niall O'Reilly - 22-11-2021 16:11:51
IPv6 has hexadecimal addresses too 8-)
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 16:12:06
Dmitry Kohmanyuk - 22-11-2021 16:12:38
i don't get it. I run separate (Brave) browser just for meetecho and my Macbook air fan, usually silent, was spinning like crazy since this session.Activity monitor shows 89% CPU on Brave, 47% on Window server, 24% on brave helper (GPU) and 14% on 2nd helper.
Rob Evans - 22-11-2021 16:12:38
Everything is a hexadecimal address if that's how you choose to represent the data.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:12:39
But Niall, those are OUR hexadecimal addresses
Dmitry Kohmanyuk - 22-11-2021 16:13:07
meetecho must be bad for environment :)
Niall O'Reilly - 22-11-2021 16:13:27
Ah, it's "us and them" again -- what was Corinne's point?
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:13:45
Dmitry Kohmanyuk - 22-11-2021 16:13:58
Andreas Härpfer - 22-11-2021 16:14:14
@Dmitry You don't happen to still have SpatialChat running in some tab?
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:14:36
Niall O'Reilly - 22-11-2021 16:14:38
But IPX reminds me of "multiprotocol routing" -- SNA/IPX/DECnet/IP/X.25
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:14:52
Niall: then with AGS appliques ?
Dmitry Kohmanyuk - 22-11-2021 16:14:57
nope. that is something i do not alllow on my machine, only on ipad i don't care if it dies of CPU overuse :)
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:15:02
and you forgot appletalk and chaosnet
Niall O'Reilly - 22-11-2021 16:15:44
@Éric: yes, and yes
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:15:59
Hisham Ibrahim - 22-11-2021 16:16:06
GSMA was big on it for a while ... but then stopped talking about it and that was the last I heard of it (a few years back now)
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:16:19
i think the question is whether lutu's analyses of IPX patterns be applied to the internet?
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:16:40
it's the patterns, not the telco vs ip
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:17:13
@Randy probably not as it is IoT devices having probably a different mobility profile but indeed interesing Q
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:18:00
what is the roaming profile o my laptop? pre-covid, of course. but the covid change would be a big signal i bet
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:18:20
now aggregate all laptop roamers
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:19:19
Internet appears faster than packet core + IPX + radio.
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:19:25
hard to study without violating PII
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:20:09
This is interesting, I am absolutely going to get those three papers and study them. I enjoyed that.
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 16:20:23
We have some broad information on things like that in academic roaming with eduroam.
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 16:20:45
Sadly it's limited in a number of ways.
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:20:55
very biased population, but would still be interesting
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:21:02
I am guessing the number of GB IOT devices which appear to be roaming is because we have sim providers who supply non-GB networks for m2m use, so that they can roam onto all local providers to avoid signal not-spots.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:21:20
roaming smart meters in an interesting concept. I'm guessing that's an aggregation sale with agreed APNs?
Wolfgang Tremmel - 22-11-2021 16:21:37
if you have a question for the presenter, please use the question tab
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 16:22:09
@Eliot I can easily imagine a multinational vendor would want to have a single contract for their m2m sim traffic, and a single place to pay
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 16:22:10
smart meter on a moose in nordics or a cow in Georgia ;)
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:22:17
@Eliot of IoT sold/shipped with a cheap (e)SIM as there is no roaming cost inside EU
Rob Evans - 22-11-2021 16:22:20
One of my colleagues wrote up some high-level stats on eduroam at the start of the pandemic: https://shapingthefutureofjanet.jiscinvolve.org/wp/uncategorized/eduroam-traffic-update/
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 16:23:03
@andy some of those also specifcially pick Islands, that way they always end up "roaming", which is easier than having a home network in reach.
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 16:23:18
couple of car manufacrturers used that hack
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:23:35
Marco - you found a much better way to explain what I tried to - thank you
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:24:08
Hisham Ibrahim - 22-11-2021 16:24:17
Good talk Andra
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:24:19
Good point, ERic
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 16:24:23
wasn't aware folk used UK sims for that, I know Malta/Cyprus were popular for these setups
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:24:41
Jersey popular for this use case here
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:24:45
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:24:47
Superb, thank you Andra !
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:24:48
Thank you, Andra!
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:25:12
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 16:25:26
Michael Welzl - 22-11-2021 16:25:39
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 16:26:32
We really should look into virtual applause. It feels so hollow when some really good talk finishes to silcence.
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 16:27:17
We need Gerardo and all the sounds he uses for the quizzes :)
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:27:28
it is hard to talk to silence and a blank screen
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:27:29
Zoom/Teams have managed to add some visual clapping cues more recently
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:27:37
Which is a good trade-off
Tristan Bruns - 22-11-2021 16:27:55
DENOG had a emoji-based reaction thingie and it was quite nice
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 16:28:00
Yes, virtual applause would be great.
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 16:28:15
@andy also regulatory envroninment plays a role - for instance NL allows companies to obtain an MNC without having a full MVNO license, that also doesn't work in every country (possibly on the logic that MNO/MVNO don't like it if some competitors are exempt from ECN status)
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 16:29:11
@christoph it has a delay, but you can also leave applause by rating the presentations
Falk von Bornstaedt - 22-11-2021 16:29:19
Virtual applause would be really great!
Wolfgang Tremmel - 22-11-2021 16:29:46
but nevertheless this tool is the best I used within the last two years.
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 16:31:13
Thanks, Wolfgang. That is good hear.
Leo Vegoda - 22-11-2021 16:31:26
Yes, Meetecho is very good and gets better each meeting
Franziska Lichtblau - 22-11-2021 16:31:42
Yes, the experience on meetecho (from speaker and audience perspective) is really the best for me :)
Vladislav Bidikov - 22-11-2021 16:32:26
Everything else is not that close to live meeting (but yes we like live even more...)
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 16:32:33
Falk: +1 :clap:
Wolfgang Tremmel - 22-11-2021 16:32:49
Looking forward to chair a session in Berlin next year
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 16:33:22
Yes, me too :) There is always hope!
Wolfgang Tremmel - 22-11-2021 16:33:23
btw - if you also want to chair a session, put your name into the hat for the PC elections
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 16:33:28
The data in Andra's talk is the first time I see hard evidence on something I have been wondering about: RTTs changing around specific wall clock times times. Does anybody know about research into traffic peaks that are synchronised with wall clock time and their impact on global latencies?
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:34:07
andra does. talk with her.
Vladislav Bidikov - 22-11-2021 16:35:42
I'm too young to PC... still love to come and present :)
And this part of the world is always interesting to research....
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 16:36:09
If you're over 18 you aren't too young!
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 16:36:16
@randy: i will. i am wodering if there are visible effects in other than specialised mobile infrastrucutre.
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 16:36:27
@Vladislav there is no minimum amount of experience for the PC. if you're interested, volunteer and see what the community thinks.
Randy Bush - 22-11-2021 16:37:04
18? pfui! i care about content/clue, not age
Shane Kerr - 22-11-2021 16:37:35
curl, though, *does* have Happy Eyeballs support. ;-)
Peter Koch - 22-11-2021 16:38:12
PC members ought to be >18 for the content to be evaluated ...
Radek Zajic - 22-11-2021 16:38:16
Yes, curl does. :)
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:38:17
@Randy I guess the 18 years old requirement is about copyright and/or any taken position by a minor.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:38:42
Not to mention the sheer amount of alcohol consumption :)
Vladislav Bidikov - 22-11-2021 16:38:43
I will when time is right... current focus is ixp.mk as soon as that gets good on it's feet we can look for the future... :)
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 16:38:54
@Vadislav, enthusiasm and a willingness to work is more important than age. We all need to get experience somehow.
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 16:38:58
I don't think we actually have a stated age limit, because we assume everyone actively engaging in a RIPE meeting is an adult. But yes, it's about potential legal/whatever complications.
Andra Lutu - 22-11-2021 16:39:22
thanks for the great questions and feedback, everyone -- catching up with the chat here! I'll be around during the week --happy to discuss more!
Radek Zajic - 22-11-2021 16:39:29
Apple is close to the latest spec, because they wrote it... :D
Radek Zajic - 22-11-2021 16:40:08
Internet Explorer and Edge (non-Chromium based) didn't support Happy Eyeballs, ever. Not sure about the latest Edge.
Vladislav Bidikov - 22-11-2021 16:40:25
don't worry, way over 18 but still time is not right i thing and hopefully i will thing about this soon...
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 16:40:27
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 16:40:46
Vladislav Bidikov - 22-11-2021 16:41:01
now there is a young face on screen :)
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:41:02
@Radek are you sure about IE ?
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 16:41:23
lack of comic sans considered harmful
Elmar K Bins - 22-11-2021 16:41:29
here we go
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:42:00
I believe that was a reference to Saku Ytti from NTT
Radek Zajic - 22-11-2021 16:42:05
@Eric: I am sure HE was missing. Need to check the latest one now. :)
Ben Maddison - 22-11-2021 16:42:17
Éric Vyncke - 22-11-2021 16:42:18
@Radek thank you, this is new for me
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:42:35
There can be only one [Saku].
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:44:23
But I believe the real discoverers were a Chinese network operator, who asked "why in heaven's name are you sending so so so many BGP ROUTE REFRESH? please stop!" :-)
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 16:44:29
never thought of this one, actually.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:45:21
Is this as a result of the nanog-l thread?
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:45:42
*recent nanog-l thread
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 16:46:15
no, nanog is consumed with 127.0.0.0/8
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:46:17
I'll try that again: Is this presentation being given following the recent nanog-l thread?
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:46:33
(I read it back and it didn't make sense to me)
Ben Maddison - 22-11-2021 16:47:24
@tom, if yor're thinking of the c-nsp thread, then partly, yes
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:47:49
Aha! It was c-nsp, yes, that one.
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 16:47:53
so convergence times are increasing due to RPKI?
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:48:44
No, due to lack of Adj-RIB-In
Ben Maddison - 22-11-2021 16:49:25
and poor implementation choices/defaults
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 16:49:50
I need a ROUTE REFRESH filter, asap.
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:50:36
Route Refresh Dampening (RRD)? :-)
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:52:26
Even an ASR9001 can deal with having soft-reconfig inbound enabled; you shouldn't really have anything with less RAM than that in service.
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 16:52:31
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 16:53:40
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 16:54:10
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 16:54:25
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 16:54:29
Dmitry Kohmanyuk - 22-11-2021 16:54:54
me too :) looking for your chairing i mean )
Vladislav Bidikov - 22-11-2021 16:54:57
great talk :clap:
Ben Maddison - 22-11-2021 16:54:58
because bad defaults never ever die
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 16:55:16
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:55:17
Tbf, IOS-XR releases have done far worse
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:55:17
Thank you and the team for working on this, Randy - much appreciated.
Ignas Bagdonas - 22-11-2021 16:55:23
Solutions #4 and #5: port CP ORF to the AFs in question, or run RTR as an AF and have an interworking similar to RTC and VPN. Both have their own uglinesses though.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:55:38
Reading the release notes for XR versions *very carefully* is part and parcel of running it.
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 16:55:43
Really important piece of work, thanks to all involved!
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 16:55:49
Sounds like a move more towards P4 to implement such stacks in software, rather too close in HW.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:55:54
(The same should be said of any NOS, really)
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 16:55:56
Job Snijders - 22-11-2021 16:56:13
"soft-reconfiguration inbound always" is how you enable the adj-rib-in functionality on Cisco
Ignas Bagdonas - 22-11-2021 16:56:18
Tom - the amount of memory is less of a problem than memory bandwidth. Multiply the number of inRIBs by the number of their entries and try to iterate over them.
Radu-Adrian Feurdean - 22-11-2021 16:56:22
mythical "soft-reconfiguration inbound"
Carlos Martinez - 22-11-2021 16:56:24
Thanks Randy !
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 16:56:46
thanks to all!
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 16:56:49
Thanks for your hard work Randy, Ben et al
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:56:50
@Ignas, a fair point - though IME, the 9001 doesn't have an issue there either.
Franziska Lichtblau - 22-11-2021 16:56:55
Thanks randy! :)
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:56:57
Which is quite an "old" box now.
Franziska Lichtblau - 22-11-2021 16:57:03
and thanks to all our speakers today :)
Chris Buckridge - 22-11-2021 16:57:04
This session has now ended. The Plenary sessions continue later in the week - join us at 10:30 on Friday for Geoff Huston’s presentation on DNS “Openness”.
Meanwhile, “Meet the RIPE community and the RIPE NCC Executive Board” will kick off at 17:30 (30 minutes from now) in Spatialchat (see your registration email for details).
More info on the RIPE 83 meeting plan: https://ripe83.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 16:57:22
Thanks Randy - very late night for you, very much appreciated
Ruben van Staveren - 22-11-2021 16:57:35
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 16:57:41