Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 12:58:00
Hi everyone, I'm here but won't be able to turn my camera on for long
Alun Davies - 22-11-2021 12:59:14
Hi everyone, I'm Alun from the RIPE NCC. This chat panel is meant for discussion ONLY. If you have questions for the speaker and you want the session chair to read it out, please write it in the Q&A window also stating your affiliation. Otherwise, you can ask questions using the microphone icon.
Alun Davies - 22-11-2021 12:59:24
Please note that all chat transcripts will be archived and made available to the public on https://ripe83.ripe.net/.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 12:59:55
Milad Afshari - 22-11-2021 13:00:51
Samuel Uzoechi - 22-11-2021 13:07:53
I can not hear any thing, can admin help me and private chat me?
Alun Davies - 22-11-2021 13:08:53
Hi Samuel - If you need help resolving a technical issue, please write to opsmtg [at] ripe [dot] net or visit the ‘Virtual Tech Desk’ at https://meetecho.ripe.net/conference/?group=ripe83demo
Hisham Ibrahim - 22-11-2021 13:09:42
sometimes all it takes is a quick refresh
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 13:10:44
Interestingly, we published the article with the same name as Corine's slide "diversity matters" on 2021-11-11 https://labs.ripe.net/author/becha/diversity-matters-at-ripe-83/
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 13:12:04
Corinne's PhD is certainly worth reading (unfortunately can't immediately locate the link)
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:12:10
FYI- Cisco publishes a Diversity report that can be found at https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/about/inclusion-diversity/us.html
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 13:12:25
but there you go :)
Roland van Rijswijk-Deij - 22-11-2021 13:12:27
link to the thesis is on this slide :-)
Koen van Hove - 22-11-2021 13:12:56
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:13:10
@Marco: This will go onto my reading lists. But reading a PhD thesis outside your own field is... hard :)
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 13:13:18
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 13:14:02
@ties oh I know that, but I don't think this "outside of our field" ansd it is written pretty accessable
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:14:13
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 13:14:15
but agree it takes some time/energy
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:15:04
i will try. takes time/energy, which often is good
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:18:05
It's wrong to say "IETF excludes" because it's open to anyone. However I do agree the IETF (and much of the IT world) has unconscious bias which deters participation by some.
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:18:23
IETF *pretends* it is open to anyone
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:18:32
that is a lie we tell ourselves, but it fundamentally isn't true
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 13:19:28
technically it is open
Niall O'Reilly - 22-11-2021 13:19:30
What Marco says about (not) "outside of our field", but I have yet to read it, so can't say about accessibility.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:19:30
@Peter Hessler what changes would you recommend to make it more open?
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 13:19:42
but in reality... :)
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:19:54
Please explain Peter. Last time I looked, the IETF didn't block anyone from going to meetings or joining mailing lists.
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 13:20:01
I am sure the 'hi Jim' dialogue that Corinne just read is not about OUR Jim who would never appear to be on the brink of fisticuffs EVER
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 13:20:15
maybe let Corinne get a bit further in her talk befiore jumping to solution space
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:20:29
In 2021, "joining mailing lists" is something of a learning curve for those that are more at home with Slack and Discord.
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:20:39
Are you saying I'm argumentative Andy? Care to step outside? :-)
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:20:54
That's before you get to the very unique process
Andy Davidson - 22-11-2021 13:20:54
for a hug
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:20:56
It is hard to follow the IETF meeting, if you not have at least some salary and some days off work.
Franziska Lichtblau - 22-11-2021 13:21:05
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:21:40
@Christoph, yes. Someone once described it as a "full time job", and I now believe it.
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 13:22:11
Franziska Lichtblau - 22-11-2021 13:22:15
yeah and attending an IETF meeting without a very specific plan ad agenda doesnt make sense
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:22:25
Wait … once I said something being said on a mailing list was “outrageous” and I had the moral police called on me. Wondering what they mean by direct
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:22:56
it takes significant time (equalling money) plus money money for the meetings. So while "open", it may still not be "accessible" for interested parties
Leo Vegoda - 22-11-2021 13:23:19
That is a useful distinction
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:23:30
not sure if this can be "fixed" - any sort of highly specialized industry meeting requires time and knowledge (and money)
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:23:41
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:23:46
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law "organizations design systems that mirror their own communication structure"
Hans Petter Holen - 22-11-2021 13:24:12
The main issue is perhaps the behaviour C describes right now? The door may be open, but the atmosphere is not particularly welcoming...
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 13:24:15
read "Operators and the IETF" draft :) (draft-opsawg-operators-ietf-00)
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:24:16
@Gert: however cultural accessibility should not be something that is _also_ a barrier?
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:24:21
IETF is bruising.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:24:37
Blake: a timely reference, well-made.
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:24:57
@Ties: yes, besides money and time, culture is also discouraging (at least in some of the WGs, I do not know all of them)
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:25:33
That 'if you take away one thing', was extremely pertinent. I hope everyone understood it.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:25:47
Virtual clapping for Corinne.
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:25:51
Money is less of an issue IMO because meetings are on-line these days. [Like this one.] And there's funding for genuine cases of hardship. That said, investing time in IETF or RIPE or... meetings is a problem. Unless it's your full-time job.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:26:12
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:26:19
@jim I hate virtual RIPE meetings
Roland van Rijswijk-Deij - 22-11-2021 13:26:38
Marco d'Itri - 22-11-2021 13:26:38
meeting new random people is too hard online :-(
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:26:42
Franziska Lichtblau - 22-11-2021 13:26:42
@Jim: But I dont think that the virtual meetings are here to stay in this fashion. They do not fulfill the same purpose
Marco d'Itri - 22-11-2021 13:26:57
especially for people who are not extroverted
Joachim Ernst - 22-11-2021 13:26:58
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 13:27:19
Thank you very much for this talk, Corinne. Definitely a topic the RIPE community needs to be aware of.
Shane Kerr - 22-11-2021 13:27:24
I recognize this talk... especially about how the IETF mythology about its culture doesn't match the IETF reality.
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:27:34
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:28:17
I recognise this conversation from the UKNOF AGM last week.
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 13:28:24
@shane: true :)
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:28:30
& we're starting to see the breakdown of the system in the results, e.g. SRv6/SRm6 debate not following the charter to push a corporate agenda...
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 13:28:34
Herman Ângelo Ramos - 22-11-2021 13:28:53
@Jim I dont think invest time in meetings such RIRs is a problem.. Special for ISPs
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 13:28:57
Thank you for this great talk Corinne!
Brett Carr - 22-11-2021 13:29:07
For people who dont feel welcome and are not confident because of that I suspect virtual meetings are atcually easier for them.
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:29:17
in years past I've gotten death threats from members of the ietf community, for my participation in the ipv6 working group. that is absolutely not welcome and accessible. and to make it *worse*, when I mentioned this in conversation to someone in person, they replied "yea, i can see that"
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:29:38
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:29:51
Maybe RIPE community should be actually studied with this regard! ;)
Anders Mundt Due - 22-11-2021 13:29:55
I hope they're no longer mebers of the community if they behave like that
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:30:04
peter: this is totally inacceptible, no matter how much someone disagrees on code or protocols
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:30:06
they were anonymous, so who knows
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:30:09
I agree Franziska. Virtual meetings may well go away once the pandemic is over. RIPE/IETF/ICANN/etc meetings offer on-line participation => no money for travel or hotels & meals. Though that's obviously not the full meeting experience.
Brett Carr - 22-11-2021 13:30:46
So even though I agree we need to get back to f2f meetings we need to ensure the things we have learned about virtual attendance are used to provide a better and more inclusive experience for all in the future.
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:30:52
"If you make a mistake, that's it." If that's not indicative of a problem, then I don't know what is.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:30:59
I remain hopeful that the online participation pre-pandemic, may be a better experience post-pandemic, as a result of the pandemic.
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:31:06
Marco Hogewoning - 22-11-2021 13:31:13
and virtual might make it even harder to join a new environment, especiallyb when it is already know or at least perceived as hostile :(
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:31:18
Oh most people think I am a man on mailing lists. It’s quite fun to see their reactions.
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:31:40
But we all know from working our dayjobs, that you can often get more done when in front of folk.
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:31:49
"hybrid" conferences are a challenge, but they also present opportunity both for more inclusivity as well as adding structure to often chaotic in-person meetings...
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:31:55
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:31:56
Michael: and not even mistakes on substance, grammatical ambiguity will be (ab)used.
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:32:26
In person meetings are very exclusionary. Not everyone has shiny nice passports and the mean.
Brett Carr - 22-11-2021 13:32:33
I think hybrid is definitely the future.
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:32:33
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 13:32:49
@Blake: ""hybrid" conferences present opportunity for more inclusivity"
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:32:51
Michael: +1. I think Giovane's point about that is very relatable.
Brett Carr - 22-11-2021 13:33:04
I'm engaged in places like RIPE and IETF more now than I was pre-pandemic
Ulrike Uhlig - 22-11-2021 13:33:16
adding to shiny passports, there is also always the issue with native English speakers not being aware there are non-native speakers on this planet.
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:33:17
yea, when I started attending ripe meetings, I did the math, and found out that the hotel+travel+entry fee was a full month's salary for me. and I was getting a german salary at the time.
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 13:33:19
For me the ideal solution would be f2f with equal remote participation that can be included.
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:33:50
Some might think hybrid meetings are especially welcome for specific early events, after specific events in the evening before.
Dmitry Serbulov - 22-11-2021 13:34:01
Unfortunately, it's looks lie "Pandemic? never stops. It's forever. World will be divided. At some times may happen virtual meetings will be impossible too.
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:34:12
part of the problem with a hybrid meeting is there is *so* much value in the hallway-track. that's an open question on how to solve in a hybrid sense.
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:34:23
Peter: this, plus a full week of work time that your employer could be selling elsewhere...
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:34:26
The problem with hybrid is that people forget about the online participants. Even when i was a chair of a group they would ignore me. I don’t know how you can create an equal footing
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:34:38
so argueing the costs for a RIPE meeting is not easy if only looking at the financials
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 13:34:56
About other communitites: My experience with other communities, especially in 'Internet Governance' have less abrasive practises. They seem to replace it with extreme politeness in public and a lot of gossip or even 'back channel slander' and 'back channel lies'. Over that I will take the abrasive style any day.
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:35:20
I agree with the discussion about the hope that virtual meetings will persist (or at least remain a good alternative). In-person networking, in my experience, is always one of the biggest attractions of an event, not merely the programme. It's more of an excuse to go. Virtual networking is a good stop-gap, but I don't think it'll ever be the same (unless we've gone full Oasis).
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:35:34
(virtual is, as a whole, more sustainable :-) )
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:35:39
Daniel: yes, there's that other extreme... polite lies, and then being backstabbed. Not something we want either
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:35:39
Alexander Isavnin - 22-11-2021 13:35:50
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:36:04
white male Americans...
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:36:10
I agree with Daniel. I prefer to get stabbed in the chest instead of in the back. :-)
Marco d'Itri - 22-11-2021 13:36:11
As an ITNOG organizer I am well aware that the talks are just an excuse to meet people at the event
Giovane Moura - 22-11-2021 13:36:14
@Daniel Karrenberg: thanks for sharing this.
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:36:17
@Daniel: In the end we are all humans, but by not trying to get better, we are getting worse.
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:36:18
+1 from me too Daniel
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:36:25
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 13:36:32
Honestly, my focus here is what lessons we can learn from this for RIPE, rather than discussing the IETF, if that makes sense. While, ofc, improving all of our communities is important.
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:36:42
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:37:18
I don’t agree with Daniel. I don’t see extreme politeness in IG venues. Don’t know where he is operating
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 13:37:19
Don't take me wrong. We should improve our style! All I am sating is that we should not fall into the trap of becoming hypocrites.
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:37:45
I agree @Jim that I'd rather people be direct. I guess it's also about how we say something. No need to sugarcoat, but we can always be more kind
Marco d'Itri - 22-11-2021 13:37:54
(also: meeting people sometimes to try to do business, sometimes because you may end up talking with some unkonwn interesting person, sometimes because they are decades-old friends)
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:39:30
people sometimes forget "attack the ideas, not the person" includes "not the person".
Ties de Kock - 22-11-2021 13:39:36
I don't think the personal attacks are acceptable. Might be a millennial thing...
Brian Turnbow - 22-11-2021 13:39:40
the bonds formed over a beer are much stronger than thoose formed over a chat or video call
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:39:40
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:40:08
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:40:11
Orla McGann - 22-11-2021 13:40:20
Thank you Corinne :clap:
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 13:40:23
@farzaneh: i have been staying out of 'Internet Governance' as much as possible for more than 10 years. things may have changed. ;-)
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 13:40:31
Well done @Corinne, and such an important topic
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 13:40:45
well done @Corinne! :)
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:40:46
@Ties: a well-known book documents the heated discussions that followed the earliest uses of the ARPANET :)
Wolfgang Tremmel - 22-11-2021 13:40:54
we can hear you
Suzanne Taylor - 22-11-2021 13:40:57
Thank you, Corinne, and congratulations!
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:41:01
I can't imagine all of those were civil
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:41:06
Ah ok. Maybe, Daniel.
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 13:41:08
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 13:41:13
Thank you Corinne
Piotr Strzyżewski - 22-11-2021 13:41:44
Thank you Corinne! :clap:
Chris Buckridge - 22-11-2021 13:42:05
@Brian that's unquestionably true... and means those with the means to attend in-person events (either because their employer funds it, or because the events are held close by, etc.) have a significant advantage. I don't think that can be fully mitigated, but we're starting to recognise that a little more these days...
Chris Buckridge - 22-11-2021 13:42:25
(and thank you, Corinne, really interesting, important discussion)
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:42:58
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:43:23
"The World's Only Known Constructively Snotty Computer Science Book: historically, its polemics for TCP/IP and against the international standardsmongers' "OSI" helped the Internet happen; currently, its principles of technoaesthetic criticism are still eminently applicable to the States of most (probably all) technical Arts"
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:44:29
I wonder if that book mentions it as well :)
Tom Hill - 22-11-2021 13:44:38
I was thinking of Where Wizards Stay Up Late.
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:45:14
fantastic that half of sellers are women. seeing this trend in parts of Africa too
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:46:56
Mirjam Kühne - 22-11-2021 13:47:11
Yes, I think this is a pretty cool project.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:47:12
@Blake that's a great book. MAP had an unparalleled – and sometimes impenetrable – command of the English language.
Daniel Karrenberg - 22-11-2021 13:47:19
Jo Hoffmann - 22-11-2021 13:47:21
Thanks Corinne, Of course the discussion doesn't end at IETF, RIPE and such, but we need to take it down to the companies and teams in tech and IT. In this we all have our share to play.
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:47:32
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:47:33
apparently he also developed the Whiskey BoF
Elvis Daniel Velea - 22-11-2021 13:47:56
the kahoot is during the lunch break, right? is it every day?
Elvis Daniel Velea - 22-11-2021 13:48:14
(hi everyone) ltns
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:48:14
I thought that was Mockapetris
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:48:30
I believe they were cohorts
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:48:47
but I'm no expert on early whiskey bof lore
Eliot Lear - 22-11-2021 13:49:34
Christoph Berkemeier - 22-11-2021 13:50:39
@Elvis, the Kahoot is every day at 12:45 CET
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:50:52
Michael are you in bangladesh?
Elvis Daniel Velea - 22-11-2021 13:51:50
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 13:52:52
not to mention, all of the users of your service may be directly affected by rising sea levels
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:53:48
something not talked about: many of the chip shortage issues are directly related to climate change. Taiwan had a record drought until this October, the whole country was rationing water
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:55:54
Scotland's got plenty of water. We used to have chip factories. That's silicon chips - not potato ones - in case any of you are wondering.
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 13:56:17
Virginia used to have them too... :-(
Kurt Kayser - 22-11-2021 13:56:24
Scotland? Wasn't that the EU-friendly part of Uk?
Shane Kerr - 22-11-2021 13:56:38
Too soon, Kurt. ;-)
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:57:04
@jim: that sounds like a plan, leave UK, re-join EU, have some of the chip fabs be shipped from Taiwan and everything will be great
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:57:07
Indeed. I'm still far too upset about that.
Brett Carr - 22-11-2021 13:57:08
@kurt yes and most of the south east
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:57:13
not sure people will understand the accent in those manuals...
Evgeny Kuskevich - 22-11-2021 13:57:29
GPU prices make a lot for reducing overconsumption today =)
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 13:57:36
Gert Doering - 22-11-2021 13:57:42
Brian Nisbet - 22-11-2021 13:58:31
There are chip fabs closer to Scotland than Taiwan, but we're happy to keep them here in Ireland. :)
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 14:00:36
see also ITRenew & CircleB
Brian Turnbow - 22-11-2021 14:01:41
the manual written by Irvine Welsh?
Farzaneh Badiei - 22-11-2021 14:02:15
Sovereignty? Why has that become the solution for everything? Also ripe is not only about Europe, as you know.
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 14:02:51
I have a few suggestions for sustainability templates to write into your RFPs if folks are interested...
Jim Reid - 22-11-2021 14:02:56
Some manuals I've read are even more depraved than an Irvine Welsh novel.
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 14:03:43
@JanZorz: "would anyone be interested in sustainability best current operational practice document?" YES, me!
Sander Steffann - 22-11-2021 14:03:50
Yep, I'm an SDIA member
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 14:03:52
Mick O'Donovan - 22-11-2021 14:03:54
That's a great idea @jan - bcop document sounds like a really good idae
Peter Hessler - 22-11-2021 14:04:07
@jan yes, a bcop doc would be great too see
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 14:04:16
Jan I'd love to jump into a sustainability BCOP
Sander Steffann - 22-11-2021 14:04:23
@jan: count me in
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 14:05:01
@Jan: yes, let's do it!
Jan Zorz - 22-11-2021 14:06:23
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 14:06:45
this is Mike's article from last summer: https://labs.ripe.net/author/michael_oghia/youve-got-the-power-sustainable-procurement-and-the-ripe-community/
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:07:15
Desiree Miloshevic - 22-11-2021 14:07:24
Alun Davies - 22-11-2021 14:07:44
Thanks for the talks all! Great session. This session has now ended. Plenary sessions continue at 14:30. More info on the RIPE 83 meeting plan: https://ripe83.ripe.net/programme/meeting-plan/
Vesna Manojlovic - 22-11-2021 14:07:53
Thank *you*, Michael, for talking about this important topic!
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:08:06
It's my pleasure :) and RIPE is one of my favorite communities!
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 14:08:17
SDIA is an excellent initiative, thanks
Anders Mundt Due - 22-11-2021 14:08:18
woah, that was loud music
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:08:24
Thank you Blake!
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:08:28
Are you still around?
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:08:45
Because if you're interested in Taiwan's water situation, I have an excellent link for you
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:09:22
Blake Willis - 22-11-2021 14:09:33
Michael J. Oghia - 22-11-2021 14:11:29
Take care everyone!
Leo Vegoda - 22-11-2021 14:13:36
Good talk, Michael!